vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
148615-so-dominion-and-exiles-page-8
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4, Page 5, Page 6, Page 7, Page 8 Content ---- ---- Incorect. Dominion is society status. Human is the race. Race has been chosen, not the name. Also, judging by your avatar, you probably play chua, so your arguments are invalid by default. Chua are vermin with no rights to exist, not to mention to even speak for themselves. Also I eat chua for breakfast. And stomp them whenever I see them. Edited January 20, 2016 by Jayvi | |} ---- The french revolution is an apt comparison to brightland's rebellion, since both sought to overthrow a government embracing ever growing social inequality. Even more so the french revolution, while generally speaking for the better, wasn't particularly pretty. About sums up the exiles. :) To elaborate on my earlier point. The conclusion that the brightland rebellion sought to destroy the dominion is laughable. They were dominion citizens that were fed up by how things were being run and wanted to overthrow the government. In no way does that equate destroying a civilization, if anything they were trying to save it, from their perspective. | |} ---- Incorrect. The Eldan chose the CASSIANS to lead the Dominion. The Exiles gave up their status as CASSIANS when they tried to destroy Cassian society and the Dominion Empire. They also willingly and intentionally gave up their status as Cassians. The analogy using our planet instead of a galaxy would be like Americans leaving america and renouncing their citizenship... They don't have the rights of an american citizen any longer... And WTF are you going on about? My Main is a Chua Medic, I also play a Cassian Medic, Aurin stalker, and Mordesh Engineer. Of those there is only one who has a legitimate argument that it shouldn't exist (the Mordesh, as it's continued existence jeopardizes the entire galaxy with the contagion). Chua are not "insane", their highest moral action is scientific advancement, not well being like some forms of morality. That is both a good and bad thing, as Mondo has saved Nexus on multiple occasions thanks to his scientific acumen (the Chua are the most intelligent race besides the Mechari according to the Ikthians). Yes, destroying the basis of a civilization is akin to destroying that civilization. Oddly enough, the vast majority of Cassians approved of Emperor Jarec, and his reign was widely considered a good one. It was a small minority of Cassians that disagreed and tried to destroy the Empire. We can go on and on about individual perspective, even Hitler was a good guy in his own eyes... doesn't justify his acts, just as Brightland and his collaborators thinking he was right doesn't justify theirs. Obviously this also goes for the Dominion as well, but the take home point, is that neither the Dominion nor Exiles is "right", they are two factions with differing views on how things should be, and both are willing to violently uphold their visions for the galaxy. Don't wan't to agree with me? Biased against Chua? Then listen to CRB HernCO, of the lore / writing team: "The main conflict in the game is between the Dominion, who believe their gods (the Eldan) granted them the galaxy to rule in the name of peace, law, and justice; and the Exiles, who have banded together to oppose them - or just survive. The Dominion isn't inherently evil and the Exiles aren't inherently good, they just have opposing beliefs about what's best for the universe, and they feel very strongly about it." -CRB HernCO P.S. on the Chua: "Their resilience to injury is worth noting as it is normal for individuals to suffer horrendous, disfiguring wounds and go on as though nothing had happened. They also posess a shocking resistance to toxins (such as poison, radiation, and carcinogens), but it is unclear whether this is natural to their species, or inherited from their homeworld's polluted environment. Presumably this disregard to personal injury led to their particularly unsafe scientific methods." If your species has extreme resistance to toxicity and injury, plus massive birthrates and a curiosity for science, it's inevitable that you will use your one resource (massive population of super tough subjects) to quickly advance your science. If you are a fan of cartoons, think the Incubators in PMMM Edited January 20, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Well, its an interesting thought for sure, however, an act of insurrection by military leaders such as Brightland, I believe falls more into an act of armed insurrection or a coup d'etat, which succinctly puts it into the realm of acts of war rather than terrorism, since the opposing force is military and the goal is not social/political change, but rather regime change. | |} ---- What's the difference between a "regime change" and "political change"? To me those are virtually the same thing, with a regime change (rye) being a form of political change(bread) like "rye" is a type of "bread", though not the only kind. IIRC Brightland was court marshalled for disobeying orders and discharged from the Millitary and was to be executed. He stole the Star of Dominus after escaping custody. I also recall that non-combatants also died in his multiple surprise attacks. I really REALLY like the way you've framed this though!!! I think (personal opinion of mine, perhaps) that an ex-admiral stealing a fleet and leading devastating attacks on the Dominion under the authority of no other soverignty would certainly be domestic terrorism rather than an act of war (as I would argue all internal Coup attempts that involve violence are...). This was also the thinking of Abraham Lincoln during the American Civil War; never was the southern insurgency referred to as a War (by Lincoln or the Union) it was always framed and treated as a rebellion / terrorism / coup and explicitly NOT a "war" which would have legitimized their claims to sovereignty. That said, we now do call it the "Civil War" so it's obvious that opinions on this kind of thing do vary. But if that's something we disagree on, so be it, if we all agreed on everything the world would be terribly boring. And as pointed out by many others here; the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is 1) point of view and 2) who wins. So it's useful to talk of the Dominion considering the Exiles as terrorists for purposes of why they pursue them, but in general it's not very informative to debate whether each faction perceives the other to be the terrorists; both factions view themselves as the good guys, and the other faction as the terrorists, and from their points of view, both have legitimate and valid reasons to do so. Edited January 20, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Yes, its very similar to how the IRA is framed based on whether you support the cause of Irish independence and reunification. Of course the UK views the IRA as terrorists whereas local Irish tend to view them as freedom fighters. (Prior to the treaty of course, now the IRA is almost entirely a terrorist organization.) However, I would still frame a military coup as different from domestic terrorism, mostly because of their separable military nature. Brightland also left and escaped then waged more of a guerrila war against the dominion. I guess where I see the main difference is in the tactics. Where I view the methods of waging a military campaign to be the hampering of supply lines, patrols, and expansion of power, even if some attacks involve collateral civilian damages, the targets are still primarily military or government in nature and have military goals (stealing the fleet having the military goal of securing supplies to continue the fight). Terrorism on the other hand tends to have aims based on creating mass fear in the civilian populace that leads the government to enact political/social change not because the government was ousted by the terrorists, but by the afraid people. To me its question of means and aims. One is military and has military aims and targets, regardless of whether civilians may be injured or killed (collateral damage). Terrorism is primarily civilian / civilian government target and is meant to coerce the existing government/populace via creation of fear. Edited January 20, 2016 by MedicMelawen | |} ---- I absolutely see your logic, and it certainly has merit. But at the same time, we consider many groups that would fit your definition of having "military aims" as terrorists, even actual sovereign nations. North Korea comes to mind, as do groups like ISIS, and many African terrorist groups. These focus generally on military targets but also kill civilians in the process occasionally to intentionally invoke fear (which the Exiles certainly do, as we see in Hycrest with the Alchemists bioterror campaign). If the Exiles weren't terrorists by your definition at the onset, they certainly have become so now, even if now it's more along the lines of "state sanctioned" versus "domestic". This is definitely a tricky question, but I guess that makes it all the more interesting! Edited January 20, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Actually, funnily enough Daesh was going to be one my prime examples. Daesh is a terrorist organization that engages in both terrorist and non-terrorist activities. Their campaign into Iraq and Syria, I would argue is not terrorism, but pursuit of a military objective by a rebel group. And while their are certainly elements that seem like terrorism in that campaign, they really fall more into a total war type argument, that is the demoralization of your opponent by engaging in military war that is brutal to the civilians in conquered territory. On the other hand, Daesh's actions in France, the US, and other countries fall more in line with terrorism. Non-military units attacking civilian targets with political aims (get western countries to recognize ISIS as sovereign, advance narrative of West v. Islam jihad, and inspire homegrown acts of domestic terrorism by people with allegiance to but who are not part of Daesh.) On the other hand, North Korea, China, the US, etc and the Exiles as we now them on Nexus, to commit actions that would be classified as terrorism were they not performed by an organization that is actively sovereign. I wouldn't say state-sanctioned terrorism, because the alchemists are more than arguable part of the Exile government, but rather State Terrorism, which as I discussed is generally viewed by legal and historical scholars more through the lens of national defense and war crimes than traditional terrorism. End of my analysis: Are the exiles guilty of terrorism - no, are the exiles guilty of war crimes - absolutely. | |} ---- Yes, both sides are definitely guilty of War Crimes, now the thorns of aboria, guilty of terrorism. Damn eco-terrorists. | |} ---- You definitely have a logical basis for your assessment. I certainly would still consider at least some of the Exile actions against the Dominion (esp. Pre "exiles") to be "terrorism". But if we go with your assessment, my only addition would be that by such standards, the Dominion too would be guilty of war crimes, but not terrorism. Anyway, your reasoning is clear and the basis for it is sound. In the end how we view political entities is largely due to personal factors, but yours was as clear an analysis as any! | |} ---- Now since the dominion isn't a person, this leaves definition 1. None which imply ending somethings existance, and one that contradicts it. No matter how much you want something to be true and convince yourself that it is, that doesn't make it true. That's not how factuality works. Not that I'm invested in this discussion, at this point I'm just enjoying watching your mental gymnastics as you bend and stretch that logic as far as you can. :P Edited January 20, 2016 by Jelletje | |} ---- Edited January 20, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- ---- "This is a misunderstanding of how the Dominion generally operates. They're not the Star Wars evil empire, blowing up planets to keep the local systems in line. They're trying to bring peace to a chaotic galaxy through law and order, and they believe their actual, literal gods (the Eldan) gave them a mission to do so. True, they do have protocols in place to carry out orbital bombardment in an extreme emergency or quarantine situation - such as keeping the Mordesh Contagion contained on Grismara - but as a war strategy it simply wouldn't happen unless the Dominion itself was threatened with collapse". -CRB HernCO Also, to earlier questions about terrorism: "What the Dominion sees as terrorism, essentially - sneak attacks, targeting non-military structures, even dismantling Mechari. And at the start of the war, the Cassian rebels (not yet Exiles) plowed a furrow of mega-death through the Cassian navy's fleet, killing thousands and almost causing them to lose control of the empire from lack of ships. What Exiles might see as mean, many in the Dominion see as forceful and necessary, albeit sometimes regrettable. Of course, there's also plenty of hate and bile on both sides. They're not nice to each other in general."- CRB HernCO Edited January 20, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- I think the Eldan could have easily wiped out the Cassians if they wanted to, but decided to repurpose them instead. That being said, I do get the "humans (both factions) are super special awesome" vibe from the game and that kinda annoys me. | |} ---- Loremageddon- "At first, the humans of Cassus welcomed the arrival of Dominus and his Mechari entourage, entering into an unprecedented age of prosperity under his leadership, and that of his Luminai descendants. Through the Luminai and the Mechari, the Eldan guided political and military policies, forging the Dominion into a conquering empire that flourished for more than 700 years. It was then that the Eldan mysteriously vanished—leaving behind a final, cryptic message claiming they would soon seize the power of the gods." Story of Nexus - "But after the massacre in Toria Square, Serrick Brightland had had enough. When he refused to open fire on revolting civilians, they'd found someone who would. And he, the most highly decorated officer in Cassian military history, was incarcerated to await execution for treason. Like his flagship the Star of Dominus, Brightland had been facing retirement. Instead, while shackled he broke all five necks of his escorts to the firing squad, escaped single-handed while in transit to his execution, and called a secret conclave of commanders whose loyalty he trusted. There'd been many more than he'd dared to hope. After commandeering the Star of Dominus from dry-dock, Brightland led a daring attack on the Dominion High Command itself, taking out myriad warships before withdrawing. More victories followed. Forming a government-in-exile, Brightland set his sights on the prize that would bring the Dominion to heel: the capitol But before he could mount his attack, Aurelius, a protégé he had trusted, found his loyalty to the Dominion outweighed decades of friendship.." From older sources to elaborate more. If Carbine could stick to one project or follow up their promise in keeping the lore in one place it would be helpful. @Spider bro The Eldan chose the humans for a reason, and considering the massive gap in space between Dominion and Nexus I still cannot understand why they would initiate such a task even with the loremageddon explanation. What purpose does an empire serve them when they can re-write reality itself with Drusera? If the GP project was to correct the mistakes in the inherent flaws of the universe then what else did the Eldan want? | |} ---- My guess is that they used to monitor and meddle with a lot of things out in the galaxy, and had the Mechari set up the Dominion to rule the galaxy for them so they could devote their full attention to the Nexus Project without worrying about some uppity lesser civilization coming along and bothering them. Edited January 21, 2016 by Ekzentric Lohner | |} ---- True, but I do like that Humans with Eldan genetics are much more special than just humans. At least it adds some flavor... "SPECIES DESIGNATION: HUMAN Species shows wide variety of genetic diversity within traditional carbon-based structure. No design evident in genetic profile. Evidence of relic genes bearing markers designated ELDAN in 34% of local population. INTELLIGENCE: 17% Ikthian Norm PHYSIOLOGY: 21% Ikthian Norm AGGRESSION: 85% Ikthian Norm RECOMMENDATION: Additional specimens with markers designated ELDAN requested. Elimination of other specimens authorized." What use is there in becoming a god with no one to worship you? This need not be taken in a negative sense either, as having a personal god of your empire who can change reality to help their subjects is also quite awesome. "Elyona: Order of the Evokers ———————————————————————– Each time observe these humans, I am surprised at their continued devotion to Vitara. As a species, their need for something to worship defines them – which, of course, is why they were selected in the first place. But if our efforts with the Genesis Prime are successful, there will soon be an altogether different god for them to serve." -note: Elyona doesn't mean this in a condescending way. She served and nursed the Drusentity from creation to the end of the Nexus project, and was among the most caring of Eldan along with Ohmna. There was never a risk of being bothered by another civilization. Heck, an envoy from the most advanced civilization we've seen besides the Eldan (the Megabots) was destroyed virtually immediately upon discovering nexus while the Eldan were still around. Edited January 21, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- I assumed the Dominion was established as a contingency plan in case the GP didn't work out so well, which was exactly what happened. Were it not for the Dominion and Exiles is it not possible that the Strain would have spread off the planet and endangered ALL LIFE IN EXISTENCE? I have not read up on that part of the lore much so I could be wrong on some things there. Edited January 21, 2016 by Mental Surge | |} ---- At least they have that going, though . . . ~puts on crotchety old woman hat~ If they try to bring up how Humans are incredibly diverse genetically and adaptive, I might make a fuss about that. I think I annoyed my boyfriend while he was playing the Mass Effect series over this. :lol: I just don't see Humans as that super special awesome in the grand scheme of things. It's because the Megadroids were clearly the more superior race. The Eldan had to wipe them out before those guys would eliminate them. :P But seriously, I want to learn more about the Megadroids and Ikthians. I find them very interesting. Edited January 21, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- I am so ready for more world lore... I would love to get some in depth Ikthian quests, same with the Megadroids for sure! I also wanna see the conclusion of Caledor's Ascendency arc, and how much Zin will change with the Elder cube in her head now... | |} ---- Bay of Betrayal was a horrible tease for the Ascendency. Edited January 21, 2016 by Spider Bro Jenkins | |} ---- My assumption on Strain is that it was a byproduct of the sabotage done by Nazrik or Zarkonis. The GP project went accordingly as planned but some unknown factor created the strain. Perhaps Jariel and N/Z's "party"? That I don't know, but knowing only Vorion had the accurate predictions in future and Jariel was often seen .. Rather inept at his job we only can guess for now. The only reason the strain did not endanger the universe yet right now is because Drusera took a last minute stand encasing herself and the strain in a huge tower of exanite, the only thing capable of holding the strain back besides fire called the Pillar of light. However after thousand years the strain is finally overcoming Drusera and it was most likely at this point she sensed Dorion Walker and guided him to the planet. Whether she knew the "chosen one" and "best friend forever" would be idly coming along or of the coming conflict one cannot say. For now, we must save Drusera and find an end before we can truly and finally unlock the mysteries behind the Eldan. @Nazryn They didn't initially start the project for worship but for the scientific achievement. Why, I don't know. But for the most part.. There is still one more treasure hunt. Jariel's vault where he kept most of his secrets hidden. There we can finally find answers, true answers to the Eldan and not just the Eldan Zin cube. There is still much of Vorion's work left undiscovered, and there is still the work of getting the Caretaker into one piece. There must also be more Eldan that existed and we must find their datacubes.. for the most part, the one thing I want is answering the one simple question: Why did Drusera in her infinite power not make a time machine instead? Is it not possible for a god to reverse time at will or foresee future events? Or is Drusera still not have reached her full potential yet? Is her form an indication of her power level or maturity? Questions.. And more questions. | |} ---- Lore actually states that the empire was almost lost. I posted the reference earlier. "killing thousands and almost causing them to lose control of the empire from lack of ships." | |} ---- ---- ---- 3/4 of the Mordesh were dead / ravagers within two weeks of Initial Contagion Outbreak. The Dominion didn't commit Genocide on Grismara, Victor Lazarin did when he sold his elixer with out testing it properly for boat loads of money. There was nothing the Dominion could have done to stop that. Though the Dominion SHOULD have glassed the planets surface to destroy the contagion. Unfortunately now that Mordesh are off Grismara the whole galaxy is in danger from the spread of the contagion (second only to the strain when it comes to galaxy ending pandemics). The Dominion (by our standards) should have nuked Grismara to stop the contagion (U.S. military training documents list "nuclear sterilization" as our solution to region wide zombie pandemics). The Dominion (along with the Exiles) has done plenty of questionable and bad things, no need to put the Mordesh extinction caused by Victor's arrogance and hubris on the Dominion too. Indeed, as leader of the Radiant Legion, Toric Antevian is present in the Enigma Chamber when the Emperor (hologram) consults with him (low born leader of the Radiant Legion), Cazalon (High born, leader of the church), Axis (Mechari leader of ICI), Zax (Chua leader of DRED), and Kezerek (Draken, leader of the Military). Toric humbly says it's not his place, but the emperor specifically asks for his opinion first. He's held as a hero of all the Dominion, and is respected and loved by virtually everyone in the Dominion. Likewise, Corrigan Doon (another low born) is the most famous treasure hunter in the Dominion (though he is a bit of a drunk). He's called upon frequently to find and retrieve people and things that no one else can. Prejudices certainly show more on Nexus than in the heart of the Empire, but even there the low born are not slaves, and are not beholden to a lower social caste; they can move through the ranks just like any highborn, it just takes more effort. Same as poor people in our society, you can make it big, but if you don't have money to start with, it's going to be an uphill battle. One thing I will say, that even with the prejudice in dominion ranks, everyone can work together in harmony FTMP. Unlike prejudices on the Exile side which threaten to tear more fragile alliances apart (e.g. the Aurin and Mordesh). Edited January 27, 2016 by Nazryn | |} ---- Si. The Osun are those tank throwing giants. I do remember some sort of reference to humans propensity to worship gods making them ideal candidates. Possibly in the Torrine area. I don't specifically remember a reference to them giving humanity another god but it would fit in with the purpose of the Nexus project. But keep in mind the time line and the larger picture. When the Eldan approached Cassus through the Mechari, there was no reference to the Eldan being gods. Only greater beings. So, the Luminai who were half eldan, wouldn't have been gods. And we see that they weren't. What we know for a fact are -The eldan's over all goal was to create an empire that they could controle. -the nexus project was specifically designed to create a god. -The luminai were part of that project -Once they succeeded in making a god, they planned and begun to have Eldan train that god in the use of her powers. Due to the fact that the Eldan hadn't actually tried to establish themselves or the luminai as gods,(Which they most likely could already have since they were already immortal and incredibly powerful) it seems to me, to indicate that they intended to run their 'empire of order' just as they always had. As highly cerebral beings who achieve their goals by creating other people and machines to do them. They knew the humans had a propensity to worship gods, which they considered a benefit. But they didn't establish themselves as gods. Instead, they chose from among themselves and created an actual god. Then they set out to train her. Remember, we know what the eldan societies motivation and interests were. They wanted to create order in a chaotic universe and their recreation was their project. HernCo has let us know that. | |} ----